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Rate of Fire IS Damage

AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
edited April 2016 in BB OVERCLOCK
Earlier today i hit a predicament while playing overclock. I was being conistently overwhelmed by the futuristic assault rifle. In one case where i was armed with the steam-punk assault rifle, both of us started firing at the exact same time and both of us died at the exact same time. Later, i asked the person who killed me what augments they had been using. They were using growth and gold, neither of which affected the weapons lethality. Meanwhile, i was using power level 4 on sp ar. The general consensus has always been that sp ar is the highest damage ar, but clearly it seems that that is not the case. And as such, i set out to find out what was going on...

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This is all of the data that i collected on the assault rifles. In each case, the highest damage rifle is circled. In one case, it is the standard assault rifle, and in all other cases it is the futuristic assault rifle. Looking at the theoretical damages, they are all very comparable. Balanced, you might say. However, in practice, their is about a 64 damage gap between the damages of the standard and the goo assault rifles, a huge difference over five seconds. It is clear that the overall damage rates and fire rate are directly proportional, but the fire rate is not what causes this gap in damage. The overall damage over time of any weapon, is more severely affected by the relationship between accuracy and rate of fire than the actual damage per shot.

Accuracy, when combined with rate of fire, is what causes this. Overall, the reasoning can be a little hard to grasp. Basically what's going on here, is that faster firing weapons will shoot more rounds. As such, all rifles will miss, but the faster firing weapons are less affected by a miss because the damage is not concentrated in fewer rounds. For an extreme example, compare the loss in damage over time from a miss with a sniper rifle, and a miss with a submachine gun. Yes, theoretically these faster firing weapons will miss more, but they still yield better results when all of the weapons in question do not have 100% accuracy. Because accuracy is an important factor, the highest damage over time for all assault rifles, is the standard assault rifle, which has the highest accuracy. However, in close quarters combat, accuracy has a lesser effect on the weapons performance, so the futuristic assault rifles fast fire rate allows it to overcome the standard and come out on top for damage over time in close quarters (this effect is not shown in the data). Meanwhile, the goo assault rifle with its dismal rate of fire has the lowest damage output in any situation by a considerable amount. Additionally, because all of these fire rates are different decimals, the damage over time will vary depending on how much time is actually applied. This is why the standard has the highest damage over five seconds, but the futuristic has the highest damage over just one.

Acknowledged Errors
The first problem this data has, is that accuracy varies wildly depending on range. Additionally, the damages vary depending on time due to different fire rates. However, flat values are used to demonstrate the effect, as it would be unreasonably complicated to run highly in-depth analysis for a relatively simple concept like this.

Second of all, this data ignores critical hits, and the damage that they do. The sp has the highest crit rate and crit damage, however, in my personal experience it is still outperformed by the futuristic ar in terms of damage. I do not know how critical hits affect the damages of all of these weapons, but there is still a point to all of this outside of them.

Lastly, i did not know what the accuracy values were for futuristic and sp, so i assumed 70% for both of them. In seperate charts, all rifles were given the same accuracy and in those cases the faster firing rifles still outperformed their slower counterparts.


Rifle Analysis
Overall, the goo rifle becomes less appealing than the others after all of this, and the futuristic becomes more practical. The standard and the steampunk variants remain viable options, as they are less prone to user error ( if your aim is off, you will waste more ammo with the futuristic), and their higher individual damage sometimes makes them better against weakened targets. I do not think this data shows the rifles as being unbalanced with each other, it is clear that relationships between these numerical values are situational and more complicated than they seem. I think all four of the rifles are balanced fairly well, but the point of this is to draw attention to the deadliness of the futuristic assault rifle and note the importance of accuracy and rate of fire.


Accuracy Augment
The accuracy augment has long been considered to be one of the least helpful augments, however these findings might suggest otherwise. The accuracy augment may in fact lead to a higher damage increase in some situations than the power augment, however i do not know these situations and to what extent they apply. Additionally, earlier today i saw someone mention in the chat that they noticed an increase in effectiveness with the daisy cutter after equipping the accuracy augment (the rockets became harder to dodge). If this is the case, the augment may be highly useful with that weapon as well.
OKY was here

Comments

  • CantTouchThisCantTouchThis Member, MVP, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,737 Exalted
    Here is some information regarding accuracy and crit values from my guide that may further help you. Also it's nice to see someone else go this in depth on weapon analysis. I'll comment more on the subject later.

    Standard Assault Rifle
    Damage: 14.4
    Ammo: 30
    Rate Of Fire: 0.143
    Damage Per Second (DPS): 100.7
    Reload Speed: 2.8 Seconds
    Critical Strike Chance: 15%
    Critical Strike Damage:130%
    Accuracy: 80%

    Futuristic Assault Rifle
    Damage: 12.3
    Ammo: 38
    Rate of Fire: 0.11
    Damage Per Second (DPS): 111.82
    Reload Speed: 4 Seconds
    Critical Strike Chance: 10%
    Critical Strike Damage: 125%
    Accuracy: 70%

    Goo Assault Rifle
    Damage: 29.7
    Ammo: 15
    Rate of Fire: 0.275
    Damage Per Second (DPS): 108
    Reload Speed: 3.6 seconds
    Critical Strike Chance: 15%
    Critical Strike Damage: 135%
    Accuracy: 65%

    Steampunk Assault Rifle
    Damage: 18.9
    Ammo Size: 25
    Rate of Fire: 0.187
    Damage Per Second (DPS): 101.07
    Reload Speed: 3.5 seconds
    Critical Strike Chance: 25%
    Critical Strike Damage: 150%
    Accuracy: 70%
    cttsignature_zps874fa2bd.png
  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
    edited April 2016
    Here is some information regarding accuracy and crit values from my guide that may further help you. Also it's nice to see someone else go this in depth on weapon analysis. I'll comment more on the subject later.

    Standard Assault Rifle
    Damage: 14.4
    Ammo: 30
    Rate Of Fire: 0.143
    Damage Per Second (DPS): 100.7
    Reload Speed: 2.8 Seconds
    Critical Strike Chance: 15%
    Critical Strike Damage:130%
    Accuracy: 80%

    Futuristic Assault Rifle
    Damage: 12.3
    Ammo: 38
    Rate of Fire: 0.11
    Damage Per Second (DPS): 111.82
    Reload Speed: 4 Seconds
    Critical Strike Chance: 10%
    Critical Strike Damage: 125%
    Accuracy: 70%

    Goo Assault Rifle
    Damage: 29.7
    Ammo: 15
    Rate of Fire: 0.275
    Damage Per Second (DPS): 108
    Reload Speed: 3.6 seconds
    Critical Strike Chance: 15%
    Critical Strike Damage: 135%
    Accuracy: 65%

    Steampunk Assault Rifle
    Damage: 18.9
    Ammo Size: 25
    Rate of Fire: 0.187
    Damage Per Second (DPS): 101.07
    Reload Speed: 3.5 seconds
    Critical Strike Chance: 25%
    Critical Strike Damage: 150%
    Accuracy: 70%

    Thanks for the info, thankfully my assumptions were correct and i don't have to go back and fix anything. The crit rates favor futuristic the least, which should bring the dps's closer together, but only slightly. The higher crit values for steampunk are definitley not enough to overcome its statistical inferiority in other areas.


    After some further gameplay with the standard assault rifle, the rifle feels very similar, almost the same in many situations as the sp. However, it has higher damage at longer ranges than the sp, and a faster reload. Basically, the steampunk assault rifle appears to not only not be the best assault rifle, but possibly the worst . It is completely outclassed by the standard variant, outperformed in most cases by the futuristic, and even though it usually outperforms the goo, it lacks the useful slowing effect. As such, there is absolutely no reason to ever use the steampunk assault rifle.


    The others, i think are fairly balanced. Goo could use a buff to the slowing effect, 5% is pretty underwhelming for its slow fire rate. Sp just needs a slight buff in general, but something to distinguish it from standard even further. My new understanding of these weapons shows they are more diverse and complicated than most people seem to think, and thats a good thing. We don't need two of the same weapon. The standard should keeps its niche, and the sp should have a new one created for it. However, i am not sure what that is. Another possibility would be for the standard ar to switch with sp, standard ar could get a larger autoaim range and better accuracy, for a niche as a long range ar, while sp could change to occupy the role standard currenly occupies.

    I'll probably post an analysis of all of the assault rifles later on this thread. I'm interested in seeing how this same effect works on other weapons, especially miniguns due to their low accuracy.


    Also, i will be making an analysis of the different sniper rifles in the next couples of days, and then an overall guide to using Oliver (he is my main character, hence why the material i am working with is assault rifles). Sniper rifles seem to be just as, if not more, misunderstood than assault rifles. Additionally, there are some tactics with sniper rifles that not a lot of people seem to use even though they are quite effective.

    Another topic that needs discussion is the pistols. Sp pistol, needs an overhaul imo, but more to the extreme of where it is. I quite like the very long auto-aim range, as it works quite nicely as a finisher for things like sniper rifles when combined with its high damage. As such, i think it should be changed to focus even more on range and damage than the other pistols, and be less useful in close quarters. As of right now, it is superior to the other pistols simply due to its range.

    Shotguns are another topic that could be discussed, but their sort of low on my list. Their mechanics make them less understandable, and as such, less analyzable. However, the futuristic shotgun could be interesting to work with.

    Again, the complexities of the weapons in this game due to lots of different variables is intriguing. There is more potential discussion between the assault rifles alone than the majority of the automatics in bbg.
    OKY was here
  • HammadHammad Member Posts: 3,433 Noble
    I think guys accuracy plays a role here. @AbsoluteZero how far apart were the people when you did the shooting test? A 200 DPS weapon is the same as a 100 DPS weapon if only 50% of the shots hit.
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  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
    Hammad wrote: »
    I think guys accuracy plays a role here. @AbsoluteZero how far apart were the people when you did the shooting test? A 200 DPS weapon is the same as a 100 DPS weapon if only 50% of the shots hit.

    There were no shooting tests, you don't need them. I said in the acknowledged errors section that i used flat accuracies, aka if it has 80% accuracy than i calculated it as hitting 80% of the bullets. And if i were to do the shooting test, then i would have the reticule right on top of the enemy player at all times. Additionally, the reduction in the effect of accuracy in short ranges is also noted, and thats why i said the futuristic is the highest dps of all of the assault rifles at close ranges- technically according to the data it would be the standard assault rifle, however the only reason its dps is higher is its increased accuracy (80% compared to 70%) which in turn has little effect within short ranges. As such, the futuristic is the highest dps assault rifle outside of long ranges.

    Also, thats not the point of the whole thing. The damage does not depend on the theoretical damage per second; in practice, accuracy is far more critical with slow firing weapons because the gap between firing is so much greater that a single miss will effectively greatly slow down the damage per second. Additionally, the single miss will be much more significant for damage overall.

    As i said earlier, compare the miss of a sniper rifle and a smg. An extreme example i know, but a full magazine of either one will do a lot of damage either way. Missing 70% of the time with a sniper rifle, however, will be far more damage lost than missing 70% of the time with a smg.
    OKY was here
  • Oops_killed_yaOops_killed_ya Banned, Trial Moderator, SkyVu Beta Tester, member Posts: 730 Corporal
    edited April 2016
    Excellent thread! I just glossed it over, but I'll read it in its entirety later.
    I'm OKY also known as Oops killed ya. I'm a proud ex-coleader of DL and currently in Storm Eight clan v4. In BBO, I also went by the name of "Greendragon0107".
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  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
    Hammad wrote: »
    I think guys accuracy plays a role here. @AbsoluteZero how far apart were the people when you did the shooting test? A 200 DPS weapon is the same as a 100 DPS weapon if only 50% of the shots hit.

    There were no shooting tests, you don't need them. I said in the acknowledged errors section that i used flat accuracies, aka if it has 80% accuracy than i calculated it as hitting 80% of the bullets. And if i were to do the shooting test, then i would have the reticule right on top of the enemy player at all times. Additionally, the reduction in the effect of accuracy in short ranges is also noted, and thats why i said the futuristic is the highest dps of all of the assault rifles at close ranges- technically according to the data it would be the standard assault rifle, however the only reason its dps is higher is its increased accuracy (80% compared to 70%) which in turn has little effect within short ranges. As such, the futuristic is the highest dps assault rifle outside of long ranges.

    Also, thats not the point of the whole thing. The damage does not depend on the theoretical damage per second; in practice, accuracy is far more critical with slow firing weapons because the gap between firing is so much greater that a single miss will effectively greatly slow down the damage per second. Additionally, the single miss will be much more significant for damage overall.

    As i said earlier, compare the miss of a sniper rifle and a smg. An extreme example i know, but a full magazine of either one will do a lot of damage either way. Missing 70% of the time with a sniper rifle, however, will be far more damage lost than missing 70% of the time with a smg.


    I think something of what i'm saying is mislead. While what i'm saying works out with the math and in my own experience, i'm not sure my reasoning as to why is all there. In terms of damage in a certain amount of time, it should be right. However rate of fire doesn't have an effect on the damage of an entire magazine, so what i said here is partially incorrect. The effect in question has to do with the way accuracy works in conjunction with varying magazine capacities. Basically, if you miss 20% of your shots, that can end up with a miss in a magazine with three rounds. There, that miss is huge. With weapons with many rounds in a magazine, this is much less pronounced. I think i made this misconception because fast firing weapons tend to have large magazines.

    However, to my knowledge only that part of what i said seems to be wrong. Everything in the original post, and everything in my other comments except for the last comment of the one that i am quoting, should be correct. Regardless, mathematically the original claim works out.

    I'm starting to like the differences in the assault rifles, but they need slight revision. It's important that they have distinguishable advantages but are still similar enough to be considered variants of essentially the same weapon.

    I put some possible suggestions for balancing changes below, but i haven't run any math so i don't know how well they would work. But the concept is still there.

    Standard Assault Rifle
    Damage: 14.4 < 14.4
    RoF: .143 < .13
    Accuracy: 80% < 70%
    Clip Size: 30 < 30
    Reload Speed 2.8 < 2.8

    Currently the standard assault rifle is the longest range of them all, and as such, it is a long range assault rifle. However, to me the standard weapons need to be the most versatile. As such, its stats should be more balanced with each other and another weapon should take the role of the long range assault rifle.

    Steampunk Assault Rifle
    Damage: 18.9 < 19.2
    RoF: .187 < .210
    Accuracy: 70% < 85%
    Clip Size: 25 < 25
    Reload Speed 3.5 < 3.5

    That other weapon,should be the steampunk assault rifle. Increasing its damage and accuracy, as well as its autoaim range (not listed above, but i would increase it by 10%-15%) and allow it to have a niche. Many people seem to forget the long range that assault rifles have, and if its range was longer than the other assault rifles, its users could easily abuse that to their advantage. However, a decrease to the fire rate would make it fall short of its counterparts up close. Of note, the changes here are intended to buff it slightly instead of being completely balanced, as before it was the least appealing assault rifle.

    Futuristic Assault Rifle
    Damage: 12.3 < 12.55
    RoF: .11 < .11
    Accuracy: 70% < 65%
    Clip Size: 38 < 38
    Reload Speed 4 < 4

    The futuristic should really be the most aggressive assault rifle variant, and the changes are slight but present to emphasize this. A decrease in accuracy for an increase in damage, should help to stress this.

    Goo Assault Rifle
    Damage: 29.7 < 29.7
    RoF: .275 < .275
    Accuracy: 65% < 65%
    Clip Size: 15 < 15
    Reload Speed 3.6 < 3.5

    Not much is wrong here, the rifle is itself inferior to the others, but the goo effect is quite strong. I would suggest increasing the slow effect to 8% per shot. Additionally, i see no reason as to why this rifles reload should be longer than the steampunks.


    The assault rifles are already pretty well balanced, none of them are bad weapons. However, since i have spent so much time dealing with assault rifle stats over the last two days it occurred to me the balance could be even better. The changes here may not be good, i am not sure (however, i tried to make them balanced) but the general concept behind all of them is something i think is important. But most critically, if it turns out to be difficult to better balance them, the ideal solution would be to just not. They are already decently balanced, and other weapons throughout the game form more pressing issues.
    OKY was here
  • ViPHeXViPHeX Member Posts: 255 Recruit
    edited April 2016
    Yeah I've recently realized how big a difference the rate of fire makes.
    I'm starting to prefer the futuristic smg over the sp smg.
  • FREESHFREESH Member Posts: 5,449 Fabled
    Were you secretly @Hackey5 this whole time
    ВЫЗЫВАЙТЕ СРЕДСТВА ПРОИЗВОДСТВА
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  • WraithWraith Member Posts: 327 Recruit
    Well done @AbsoluteZero and @CantTouchThis for putting your effort in helping us with knowledge about BBO. :smiley:
  • HammadHammad Member Posts: 3,433 Noble
    edited May 2016
    @AbsoluteZero Late post, but on your thing about slower weapons will suffer more from missing, it's true. But doesn't that also apply to faster weapons? While slower weapons might miss a shot and have a long recovery time, the faster weapon will miss LOTS of shots in that time. At the end if both weapons are given the same time to shoot, all those missed shots from the fast weapons will add up and equal that 2-3 missed shots from the slower weapon damage wise.
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  • KiraKira Member Posts: 85 Recruit
    Wow that's a lot of information on assault rifles from you guys :3
  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
    Hammad wrote: »
    @AbsoluteZero Late post, but on your thing about slower weapons will suffer more from missing, it's true. But doesn't that also apply to faster weapons? While slower weapons might miss a shot and have a long recovery time, the faster weapon will miss LOTS of shots in that time. At the end if both weapons are given the same time to shoot, all those missed shots from the fast weapons will add up and equal that 2-3 missed shots from the slower weapon damage wise.

    Yes, sort of. It kind of depends on what weapons you're comparing. It doesn't really make the biggest difference, espeically not at close range, but the slower firing weapons tend to have their damage compensate for missing later on. The rapid firing weapons might miss more but they're more likely to get any hits at all. If given a longer time frame, or if both of them deplete the magazine entirely, there isn't really any difference at all. Also, at close ranges this is all fairly irrelevant as almost all shots will hit.

    If given very short time lengths, the higher damage rifles come out on top because the weaker ones won't have enough time for the succeeding shots to come out. There is a lof of room for user error to effect this differently too. So, yes and no. It just kinda depends, all of the assault rifles deal pretty comparable damage overall but some deal slightly more situationally.

    The original post kind of exaggerates the effect, and it could be totally wrong. But this is how i think it works.
    OKY was here
  • HammadHammad Member Posts: 3,433 Noble
    Hammad wrote: »
    @AbsoluteZero Late post, but on your thing about slower weapons will suffer more from missing, it's true. But doesn't that also apply to faster weapons? While slower weapons might miss a shot and have a long recovery time, the faster weapon will miss LOTS of shots in that time. At the end if both weapons are given the same time to shoot, all those missed shots from the fast weapons will add up and equal that 2-3 missed shots from the slower weapon damage wise.

    Yes, sort of. It kind of depends on what weapons you're comparing. It doesn't really make the biggest difference, espeically not at close range, but the slower firing weapons tend to have their damage compensate for missing later on. The rapid firing weapons might miss more but they're more likely to get any hits at all. If given a longer time frame, or if both of them deplete the magazine entirely, there isn't really any difference at all. Also, at close ranges this is all fairly irrelevant as almost all shots will hit.

    If given very short time lengths, the higher damage rifles come out on top because the weaker ones won't have enough time for the succeeding shots to come out. There is a lof of room for user error to effect this differently too. So, yes and no. It just kinda depends, all of the assault rifles deal pretty comparable damage overall but some deal slightly more situationally.

    The original post kind of exaggerates the effect, and it could be totally wrong. But this is how i think it works.

    Your correct. At super short timeframe, that one shot from slow weapon, if hits, will do more damage because only a few bullets will come out from fast weapons. At just short timeframe, if the slower weapon misses, it won't have enough time to make up in that timeframe, and the faster weapon will fire shots, and whether if a few miss or not, the shots that do hit will add up to higher damage in that timeframe. At a long timeframe, both will be the same.
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  • terminaterterminater Member Posts: 250 Recruit
    When u notice all them hours in math class paid off lol
  • KiraKira Member Posts: 85 Recruit
    edited May 2016
    terminater wrote: »
    When u notice all them hours in math class paid off lol

    I do agree on that
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