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What Made bbr BETTER than bbg

AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
I have long believed that bbr was a better game than bbg. I have been contested on this in the past, given that the former has more content, private matches, ect. I have also been accused of being blinded by nostalgia which is a nice feeling. However, I genuinely believe bbr was a better game than bbg for a few simple reasons that I can actually articulate.


The first and foremost reality is that gameplay only matters so much. What is important is that it is fun. This is fairly easy to see looking at bbr, a game with historically horrid balance that managed to be very popular none the less. The game had no private matches, and no ranking system. The introduction of all of these things was nice sure, but the game didn't truly need them to be popular. The fact that the addition of features such as these and loadouts has not managed to save the game seems to have confused people but again they were hardly necessary. They do improve gameplay but this is trivial compared to the main focus of the game: being fun.

So what is it that made bbr, in my humble opinion, so much more fun? The most important thing was that it had one characteristic that bbg has lacked for a long time now: charm. Bbr had personality in spades, much more so than almost any game I have ever played. Every character had a distinct personality, from Tillmans blatant sarcasm to Riggs stern, no-nonsense attitude. Weapons were uniquely designed and descriptions were enjoyable, with the game being filled to the brim with little jokes and puns. The game also had an unusual artstyle; it looks oldschool. The gritty styling of the game contrasted the personality so effectively as to make the artstyle really fit. Little touches from jokes on the waiting screen to skins that serve no purpose other than to be funny made this game far more enjoyable to play. Controls looked different from other games, and double tap was a substantial difference from the conventional shoot button. And even the currency was unique, relying on joules as the main currency. But I know what some people are thinking. Bbg has all of these things too. Most of what you have said is not different between the games.


But in my opinion, that couldn't be less accurate. The personality that is in the game has been under assault for a long time now. Creative weapon concepts have been drowned out by a surge of boring content. The gritty menu theme and artstyle have been redesigned, and no longer fit the game quite as well (few people I know prefer the new artstyle). the jokes in the wait screen are less relevant due to the prevalence of private matches. New characters have been quite devoid of personality in comparison, most notoriously Saberi. The only one of the new characters that rivals the old ones in terms of entertainment is B-1000 in my opinion. Even the loading screen looks out of place right now, with brightly colored castles in the background. The game is overwhelming, and not in a good way.

Other things that I think bbr did better are outlined in one of my old threads:
https://battlebears.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/43364/i-think-i-found-out-why-bbr-was-so-popular#latest

So how do we fix it? How do we restore the qualities that made bbr great?


Slooooooow down.


Only in certain ways of course. Bring the artstyle back to earth. Sure it's an unusual look, but you don't get to be good by being the same as everyone else. That's precisely how you become a standard shooter that no one wants to play. Bring back the old menu theme, and make a loading screen similar to the original. A simple display of all the characters in a fairly standard, but gritty look fit the game very well. It made it seem like you were going to get introduced to a group of more hardcore characters, only to play with squirt guns and rainbows. Update the jokes in the waiting screen. Many of them are comparatively old. Try to be more entertaining with the weapon descriptions. If it is too hard to come up with descriptions for certain weapons, run community contests to name or describe them. The person whose description or name gets selected can win gas. I know it can be hard to be creative sometimes, but many of us in the community would love to help with that. Make sure that each character has a very specific personality that can be identified, just like the originals. Weapons should fit classes to make them more distinguishable (no weapons like Fidget Bomber that are totally out of place). And more importantly, scrap A LOT of content going into bbr2. It's too much for a new game and frankly maybe even too much for an old one. Reskins of weapons would be fairly easy to remove. Make the game simpler. There's simply too much going on and not in the right places. Remove battle royale at least for now (I honestly have no idea what it is but I have heard many complaints about it and I refuse to believe it is necessary) and remove King of the Windmill. Team Deathmatch, PtB, and Free for All is all we need.

For example, I remember an old forumer came up with a description for see-saw that I liked (I am so sorry I cannot recall your name): "I see. I Saw. I Conquered." It's not super funny or anything but its simple and it seems to fit. Maybe that one isn't as good in your opinion but look at see-saw's current description. Pretty hard to feel strongly about it. See-Saws description just describe his background (how he was created). This is a flaw in my opinion that all forms of bbr/bbg have had. Add character bios similar to bb0. The bios in that game helped give each character personality, and combined with bbr's quotes will make each character very identifiable. Use this bio to explain huggables background. Leave the weapons descriptions to describe the weapons.

As far as ranking goes (if you read my older thread I linked above). I have a simple fix that I think will please all sides of the community. Pubs are unranked, but clan battles and 1v1s are not (yes, make 1v1s an option). This means that it is very easy to play a casual match whenever you want to. You never have to worry about your rank (assuming they actually matter, right now everyone is diamond) and you can play with a mix of players. However, for clan battles and 1v1s the player does have a rank. The rank can be visible in pubs but is not affected.

An addition of social features will also help the game greatly. Clan support is a must. Add in the inbox systems (well fix it first) and friends lists from bb0 and bbf respectively. Change the chat to be like bb0's chat. Bbg's chat is not well integrated into the menu and sticks out too much. Simply get bb0's chat (the way it looks, the profile system, ect.) and add it into the game.

Those are some of the more important features that I have touched on, but I will make a list of things that I think should be changed.

Needed Changes
-revert old artstyle
-remove uncreative content. It is too overwhelming, it can be fixed and added back in a later update
-bring back old menu theme. It could be a good idea to have menu themes selectable to please everyone. Throw in the bbu menu theme as in option in that case.
-Change the loading screen back to the old style
-reduce the number of gamemodes. A few are not well liked anyways and make the game a bit overwhelming
-introduce bb0 styled chat
-introduce bb0 style character bios
-update waiting screen jokes. Don't remove any just add some.
-Update some weapon descriptions if deemed necessary
-create a separate taunt button, instead of having to jump and hit 'woohoo' at the same time. Please, for my sanity
-Fix double taps sensitivity to be the same as shoot button. It should not be necessary to relearn how to aim when switching between them
-add in clan support and possibly adjust ranking system (the former idea is popular, the latter I am not too sure)
-add a friends list
-bring back reaction spamming. Make it so that when spammed, only the first of a emote is shown (aka you can spam woohoos audibly, but only one is shown on the left side to prevent flooding)
-Emotes should be usable after death, but 'after him' and non Soldier equivalents can only be used once to prevent rage spamming
-revert controls back to the old look, but the modern look can be used instead if the player prefers (selectable in settings)
-make Christmas skins exclusive to Christmas


I suspect that most people will likely find the above changes agreeable. Notice I am not even suggesting game play changes yet. Game play is important but secondary. We are making a free to play app, not a hardcore pc shooter. We just need it to be fun, people are not expecting apps to be amazing games. It just needs to be simple and fun. Gameplay changes are welcome and should be made, but let's address these issues first.


On another note, do not add in bb0 style abilities if you can avoid this (I know the publisher sometimes has different ideas). This is not a popular idea and the system we currently have works well.
OKY was here

Comments

  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
    edited July 18
    I am mainly known now a days for playing bb0 in this community, but I am not really suggesting that bbr2 should become more like bb0. In fact if anything it should become more like bbr.


    bb0 was unfortunately devoid of personality compared to bbr, but it proves another one of my points. The gameplay was in many ways horrendous. Armor, augments, health regeneration, and autoaim all served to create very unbalanced gameplay that was often unfair and to some unappealing. And yet the game had a fairly loyal community for a long time. Why? Because the gameplay was, in our opinion, fun. And that's what matters.

    Our game was abandoned, and with it, our section of the community is almost gone. There are far, far more remaining bbg players than bb0 players. Only a few of us are still active, and most that are played bbg just as much if not more than bb0. My point is, balance and gameplay are important. But you can have a functional community without a lot in those areas. As long as the game is fun and unique, it should succeed.

    Increased community interaction is important. The daily blogs that were written by Lt. Action were perfect back in the day and have been sorely missed. Bring back the weekly blogs. Make them on Monday instead so that they don't align with Skyvus weekly Friday streams. Skyvu should be a bit more active in the community. Ya'll have been good about this recently.

    Discord is not a proper substitute for the forums, as we cannot make threads like this on discord. If our community grows much larger following the next game, please consider bringing the forums back.
    OKY was here
  • Hackey5Hackey5 Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 4,779 Fabled
    "We just need it to be fun, people are not expecting apps to be amazing games. It just needs to be simple and fun."

    This much is true. It just needs to be fun, and what can make fun does not need to be complicated. The smallest things can make the biggest difference. It pays to listen to community feedback to help identify these things.


    I'll point out that King of the Windmill has already been removed, an inevitable outcome to an uninspired derivative gamemode. However, Royale is so much more enjoyable in being a significant contrast from the typical kill-die-repeat process and introduces so much more strategy in the player having only a single life. My primary disagreement is there not being a need for new gamemodes. In fact, introducing quality new gamemodes is something which I believe can diversify and expand gameplay to bring about even more entertainment value. This is about the only aspect I disagree with from the main post. Back to impressions...

    Everything you've mentioned outlines a very real fall from grace BBR has been experiencing as the years have come and gone. I believe the pinnacle of the game was reached at v1.4.3, the Dead Eye, Marecraft map etc. update. Quality creative weapons were being released, there was a great assortment of maps, stacking had been fixed earlier, gameplay was yet to be distorted by [anti] Pro-Mode, and the classic BB charm was strong. The Chub Scout, Engineer and v1.3.1 retextured weapons updates were also highlights, times when the hype was real. Not going to lie, I enjoyed BBG when it first landed too, but as AbsoluteZero has explained, it marked the start of a decline which gradually diminished the BB charm as it become overwhelmingly clear that monetisation and content production were SkyVu's greater priorities.

    Meanwhile, BBU/O came and went. You've got to wonder, did anyone ever ask for a parallel substitute to BBG? (It's basically self-cannibalism.) I recall playing BBU maybe once or twice really early on. That's all it took for me to know that I didn't want to play the game. That former grittiness which blended so well with the whole idea of soldier bears had succumbed to blatant cartooniness, while the menus reverted from BBR's immersive ship interior to a far more typical, lacklustre style. I would not have embraced the BB franchise if that game was what I first experienced. And that's it. SkyVu should relentlessly defend the original spirit of the franchise which sucked us in in the first place. BBR2 needs to bring us back to that feel that the classic BBR knew how to deliver, and the BB charm needs to be conveyed not just through the game and its updates (and they must be thoughtful, us players can sense it), but in the community's atmosphere, something those old blogs did so well. It'd help to keep the forum going too.


    Going forward, I fear that it's the unnecessary loss of the little things that made BBR really resonate that could ultimately sink the sequel, or even just alienate us who have come to love BBR as the horribly imperfect but seductive beast it is.
  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
    Hackey5 wrote: »
    "We just need it to be fun, people are not expecting apps to be amazing games. It just needs to be simple and fun."

    This much is true. It just needs to be fun, and what can make fun does not need to be complicated. The smallest things can make the biggest difference. It pays to listen to community feedback to help identify these things.


    I'll point out that King of the Windmill has already been removed, an inevitable outcome to an uninspired derivative gamemode. However, Royale is so much more enjoyable in being a significant contrast from the typical kill-die-repeat process and introduces so much more strategy in the player having only a single life. My primary disagreement is there not being a need for new gamemodes. In fact, introducing quality new gamemodes is something which I believe can diversify and expand gameplay to bring about even more entertainment value. This is about the only aspect I disagree with from the main post. Back to impressions...

    Everything you've mentioned outlines a very real fall from grace BBR has been experiencing as the years have come and gone. I believe the pinnacle of the game was reached at v1.4.3, the Dead Eye, Marecraft map etc. update. Quality creative weapons were being released, there was a great assortment of maps, stacking had been fixed earlier, gameplay was yet to be distorted by [anti] Pro-Mode, and the classic BB charm was strong. The Chub Scout, Engineer and v1.3.1 retextured weapons updates were also highlights, times when the hype was real. Not going to lie, I enjoyed BBG when it first landed too, but as AbsoluteZero has explained, it marked the start of a decline which gradually diminished the BB charm as it become overwhelmingly clear that monetisation and content production were SkyVu's greater priorities.

    Meanwhile, BBU/O came and went. You've got to wonder, did anyone ever ask for a parallel substitute to BBG? (It's basically self-cannibalism.) I recall playing BBU maybe once or twice really early on. That's all it took for me to know that I didn't want to play the game. That former grittiness which blended so well with the whole idea of soldier bears had succumbed to blatant cartooniness, while the menus reverted from BBR's immersive ship interior to a far more typical, lacklustre style. I would not have embraced the BB franchise if that game was what I first experienced. And that's it. SkyVu should relentlessly defend the original spirit of the franchise which sucked us in in the first place. BBR2 needs to bring us back to that feel that the classic BBR knew how to deliver, and the BB charm needs to be conveyed not just through the game and its updates (and they must be thoughtful, us players can sense it), but in the community's atmosphere, something those old blogs did so well. It'd help to keep the forum going too.


    Going forward, I fear that it's the unnecessary loss of the little things that made BBR really resonate that could ultimately sink the sequel, or even just alienate us who have come to love BBR as the horribly imperfect but seductive beast it is.

    The issue I have with new gamemodes is that they will divide the playerbase. What I mean by this is that if some players are trying to play PtB, and others FFA, and the rest TDM, then it will be harder to find a match in each lobby. New gamemodes are good, but when you have a smaller playerbase they tend to make it too difficult to find a match. Three gamemodes is enough I feel. Adding more later can diversify gameplay and can be a good way to add content without flooding the game with too many weapons, but for now I think we should stick with three.


    Not going to pretend I am up to date on the state of bbg. Truth is I am not which why I didn't know king of the windmill had already been removed. Most of what I am saying is based off of early versions of bbg I played and bbr.

    I did also enjoy the early versions of bbg as well. Truthfully early bbg and late bbr were not too different outside of a few (albeit significant) changes. I actually quite like a few additions bbg has made, including B1K, some of the maps (most of the early bbg additions, such as Gold Digger) and a few of the new weapons.

    Making BBU/BB0 was a significant mistake that heavily damaged the franchise. And that is coming from a bb0 player. Skyvu does not have the resources to do both games justice, as all bb0 players have painfully learned. Creating a parallel game only served to isolate both fanbases. However, I am not entirely sure that BBU wasn't intended to eventually replace bbg. I suspect that it was and that when it was not as successful as planned, they continued work on bbg. Could be wrong, but that is my suspicion.
    OKY was here
  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
    A concern that has been raised is my calling for significant degree of content removal. I have been asked as to how removing content can be a good thing, and suspecting that I may get this question again moving forwards, I will answer it here.

    Content is only good if it is good content. I think this should speak for itself but some people are not sure how it could benefit the game to remove weapons and or entire characters (Saberi). Having more content is only a good thing if it actually contributes to a positive atmosphere and gameplay. Unfortunately, much of the content that has been added in bbg has not really fit the game and has made gameplay less intuitive.

    My main example as to why content is not actually necessary is old school Demo. At least 90% of Demo players back in the day used dark matter almost exclusively, perhaps because it was by far his best weapon. But the point is people still played Demo and enjoyed it. He was even some peoples favorite character. All with only one good primary weapon.

    Another example from the bb0 perspective is the Steampunk Sniper. I swear they could have removed every other weapon from that game and I would have still played it (assuming Skyvu updated the game with features and maps, which they didn't). Many snipers were the same way. I know some people that reached very high levels playing almost exclusively with the weapon. A single great, fun weapon is much preferred to a vast amount of meh weapon designs that no one feels particularly strongly about.


    One of the greatest logical traps that many people in our community seem to fall for is that more=better. This is not always the case. I am arguing for a removal of content that I deem uncreative or destructive towards the game as a whole.

    The reason I made this thread is to draw attention to important issues that are not often addressed. We could cut 90% of bbg's weapons and have a very good game. I had a blast playing bbr back when most characters only had three or so weapons.





    On another note, my suggestion to possibly remove a gamemode or two has not been very popular, and so its validity has been called into question. Zero's vision of bbr2 may not be the best, so perhaps we should keep an additional gamemode or two. But other than these concerns, most of the points I have brought up above have yet to be seriously contested. I am fairly confident in most of the reasoning I have made in this thread and hope I can accomplish at a minimum some discussion on these matters on discord.
    OKY was here
  • Mysterious_KangarooMysterious_Kangaroo Member Posts: 3 Recruit
    edited July 19
    I would like to point out that I never considered BBG and BBR to be different games. I do know that a lot of people do, but I always considered them to be the exact same game, just a large update in between the two. That being said, I think that asking what made BBR better than BBG is relatively pointless. They are the same game, and the question that should be asked is "What happened that made BBG less fun? I doubt that upon the release of BBG that BBR was instantly deemed "better." They started out as roughly the same thing, save for the art styles. Personally, I feel as though separating the two games was a bad move on SkyVu's part. Had BBG just been a simple update without changing the name (and perhaps the art style as well,) I feel as though people wouldn't have reacted in this way. It happens in all games; sequels are commonly deemed "worse." The best thing that they could have done was leaving the games the same. Nostalgia barriers can't be created if players have been playing the same game the whole time after all.
  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 3,445 Noble
    edited July 19
    I would like to point out that I never considered BBG and BBR to be different games. I do know that a lot of people do, but I always considered them to be the exact same game, just a large update in between the two. That being said, I think that asking what made BBR better than BBG is relatively pointless. They are the same game, and the question that should be asked is "What happened that made BBG less fun? I doubt that upon the release of BBG that BBR was instantly deemed "better." They started out as roughly the same thing, save for the art styles. Personally, I feel as though separating the two games was a bad move on SkyVu's part. Had BBG just been a simple update without changing the name (and perhaps the art style as well,) I feel as though people wouldn't have reacted in this way. It happens in all games; sequels are commonly deemed "worse." The best thing that they could have done was leaving the games the same. Nostalgia barriers can't be created if players have been playing the same game the whole time after all.

    I get what you were saying except I think that for the most part the approach taken towards the game differed greatly between bbr and bbg, therefore it is useful to divide them into two eras. Yes, late bbr and early bbg were not too different. But the approach taken after the very beginning of bbg was radically different than skyvus approach to bbr.

    You are correct in that bbr was not instantly deemed better (well except for me, I dislike the jump button so strongly I did instantly reach that conclusion. But others did not), but again, the way bbg has been treated and the general theme of updates has been very different from bbr and as such as dividing the history of the game into a bbr era and a bbg era is, in my humble opinion, useful. They started out roughly the same, but over time they ended up being fairly different in a number of ways. I do not think it is completely valid to pretend that they are somehow entirely the same or that it is useless to compare them.

    I also do not know what I have to do to prevent the topic of 'nostalgia' from coming up. I could write one hundred pages about why I think bbr is better and someone would still mention it. I do not like the word nostalgia coming up in these sorts of conversations because it becomes an easy excuse to not listen to the argument at hand. I am not trying to suggest that you are certainly doing this but I have found that it is quite common for people to ignore my points entirely and accuse me of going off of nostalgia, no matter how much I articulate my opinions.


    Bbr was a popular game, and ended popular. Bbg started popular, and ended up dead. Something (or many things) has happened to cause this, and as such, comparing the two makes sense to me. But yes, they are essentially the same game.

    My apologies if my response comes off as condescending. I am not intending to do so although I know I certainly can be that way at times.

    Also, welcome to the forums. Hope you enjoy your stay, although it may have to be brief. You are always welcomed on the discord server if you are not already on it.
    OKY was here
  • Hackey5Hackey5 Member, SkyVu Beta Tester Posts: 4,779 Fabled
    True with the note of a small player base. I have been having trouble getting into matches and have generally been forced to stick with the ones that are temporarily accessed straight from the main menu. Of course, a larger player base will quickly make having more game modes more practically feasible.

    The BBR2 beta will reportedly open with just the Soldier and Heavy classes available. The actual form they take is currently in open discussion, and may radically differ from commonly held expectations. However, it's also been noted that certain weapons will be redistributed to other classes and as a whole will gradually be added back in. I'm hoping we'll have some input here, for reasons already mentioned on this thread. Release will probably feature the most well-developed classes, while the other less definitive ones will be set under the microscope for consideration and tweaks. Happy that the Combat Tech is getting the chop, and the indescribable Steamyard Blues map too (although the song was a good one and should be kept somehow).

    So I guess things will indeed follow a process that recognises what you're getting at, Zero. Yeah, I certainly found the classic BBR era more memorable. Freshness, nostalgia and hype do play a part in perceptions, though, and were more prevalent back in the day, as should be expected. Die a hero or live long enough to become the villain rings true for sure. Most of all I hope BBR2 has a carefully planned update framework that doesn't see the integrity of the game corrupted by a half-hearted blueprint or 'spiritually compromised' additions down the track.

    By the way, Mysterious_Kangaroo is our up and coming balancing boi SkyRoo, coming to scheme in balancing discussions near you!
  • Chocolate_ThunderChocolate_Thunder Member Posts: 28 Recruit
    gonna miss ptb farming on steamyard blues and getting 30 plants
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